But some consumers say it gives the scallops an off flavor and may mask the signs of spoiling. Night and day difference! The Finish Powerball Tablets do clean well, but appear to deliver too much detergent for my Miele. When I tried to cut them in half nightmare. Can anyone tell me if they have the same experience? I just bought a 5lb pail of STTP, screw the hippies I want dishes clean again, I've better things to do with my time then hand wash dishes.
If anyone else is interested in beating the watermelons at their game just go to the chemistry shop and order a pail of sodium tripolyphosphate. Interesting, I had no idea phosphates were banned. Just looked at my almost-empty box of Cascade Complete and sure enough, no phosphate. I haven't noticed any difference in cleaning performance. As always, I've just been using my 1-to-2 tablespoons per load of scraped-not-rinsed dishes which accummulate until the DW is full.
That might be a half a day or it might be three. I guess I have good water? Or a good dishwasher? The first two or three loads of dishes I ran, I was a little disappointed. I called Miele, and they asked me to read them the label on my dishwasher powder. Sure enough I have had a Miele dishwasher, 4 of them, in the last 3 homes I have owned in the last 16 years. Miele provides quiet, flawless and super reliable cleaning. But, dishwasher detergent without Phosphates is inferior to detergent with Phosphates.
I mentioned this on another thread, but after my phosphate-free Cascade left all kinds of white residue on my glassware and black plastic utensils even in my spiffy new Miele , I tried Lemi Shine, and it worked very well.
To anyone with a Miele Dishwasher, I would suggest try using the newer Miele Tabs that are phosphate free. I have used both the original Miele tabs that did contain phosphates and the newer ones that don't contain phosphates in my Diamante. I haven't had any reason to think about using another dishwasher detergent.
I know they contain salt and rinse aid the old ones did not. This has been linked before, and it was updated late last June, but it may be helpful to see it again. Here is a link that might be useful: State partial ban on phosphates. It does not replace using the built-in salt water softener and rinse aid dispenser. Here's the link from last year about the new Miele Tabs.
I have more info about them in the last few posts. Here is a link that might be useful: Newer Miele Tabs on the Miele site. I have a call and email in to the svce tech sup'v hadn't heard back as yet, hence my post here. Just want to make sure I don't need to change any of our Optima's settings with the new formulation tablets.
I am going to look for the tablets locally--if none to be found, I'll order online. The first few months of having my Miele, I was on the phone with customer service constantly trying every permutation of dishwasher detergent. None of them worked well.
I have photos of food left on the dishes and thick white film on the glasses, pots and pans, plastic food storage containers, and utensils. Finally, a rep at Miele told me to use 1 tblspn of Cascade powder - not the more ecological detergents that I wanted - and sent a repairman out who changed the amount of rinse agent released in each wash. The rep said that because Miele uses so little water, there's not sufficient water for the ecological detergents.
Also, because Miele uses so little water compared to the other brands of dishwasher, you should not use non-Miele tablets which are designed for standard American dishwashers. Lastly, the rep pointed out that using an energy efficient and water efficient Miele and the smaller amount of detergent, should offset the environmental impact of using a "non"ecological detergent. Hope this helps. When you run out, you may want to give the new Miele tabs a try. I only use a half-tab and get excellent results.
On occasion maybe once a month , I may use a full tab if the dishwasher is over loaded and has a lot of baked-on stuff, just to make sure it gets everything clean. There's one not far from me in South FL so that is where I go to purchase it.
I know the Miele site sells it, but not sure about them charging tax and shipping. Don't think so, but I'm going to make some calls to a few of the local-ish high-end appliance stores and ask if they stock it. I vote for simply adding a Tsp of TSP in the detergent holder.
I know the problems associated with phosphates, but I save water because I no longer have to pre-wash the dishes. Here is a link that might be useful: TSP for dishes. Davidlespangler, who has just signed up to the Gardenweb, resurrected this thread and posted just so that people will click on his blog, which he linked. Hi I have been reading this thread and this is only the second or third time I have been online to talk about a problem.
I have two Miele DWs at my cottage. We have a water softening system to take the iron out of our well water. We keep the machines set for soft water.
Last year out of concern for the lake we live on I switched to a phosphate free DW soap. I used to use Finish tabs and break them in half on the advice of a Miele serviceperson.
The new tabs are generic from a large grocery chain. They come in a skin that you do not have to remove. After a year of use my friends started complaining that my wine and drinking glasses smelled soapy. First I switched back to Finish but I really don't like the powerball because you cannot break it. In the early '70's, limitations on the use of phosphates were implemented in the US and Canada.
Also interesting to note that some states have banned or limited use of phosphate fertilizers for lawn use but have exempt agricultural commercial farmers, etc. Anonymous The operative word in your reply is "vast".
Your overall story is true at the industrial level. The reason it's scaled back commercially is because the benefit of that scaling outweighs the costs. But, in specific examples like this one, TSP is not dangerous. It's the chemical and the context in which it is used that should spur a decision like this. Having said that, Poppy I was going to ask, have you tried a lesser amount per wash? Have you tried maybe a half-teaspoon to see if you get the same result?
I'm just curious because I'm going to try this as well and was looking to see what other experiences were. Thanks for the additional information Anonymous 2.
I re-read the article and can see that the instructions could be confusing. Thank you for pointing this out. Have a great day! Please do just a bit of reading. Trisodium phosphate isn't a contributor to algae blooms. If you want to blame a phosphorus product for algae, it's those compounds which were designed specifically to fertilize vegetation. That is, mono-potassium phosphate fertilizers.
TSP, the major cleaning component of detergents, is the end result of a reduction process - which makes it more difficult to be absorbed by organic processes.
But that they should be attacked anyway! Which is better for the environment? Washing your dishes four times, or just once, while putting some phosphorus in the water?
The latest science is that the type of phosphates in TSP, and which were formerly in dishwashing and laundry detergents, have no affect on algae blooms. Not to mention modern sewage systems are very effective at removing all phosphates from the system. Just another case of the greens fixing something that is not a problem. Algae blooms come from agriculture not households. Just like the idiotic low flow toilets. I don't know how much research supports TSP being a non-issue even if it were to build up, but I can understand minimizing phosphate usage where it's not key to product performance.
In laundry detergent it may not be as important, but in dishwasher detergent it seems to be. And dishwashers tend to use less water and actual detergent than many clothes washers anyway. BTW, anon is only correct about CO2 removal if that algae happens to sink into the cold depths upon death. Otherwise it cycles back to the atmosphere pretty quickly via the food chain and decomp.
The major contributor of phosphate in the environment is the runoff from cow populated pasture land. The untreated manure contaminated water is high in phosphates AND E. Be cautious with your glassware, the high alkalinity pH of TSP can contribute to glass fogging, but it is less of an issue with hard water.
Industry used STPP sodium tripoly phosphate for laundry and dish consumer formulations. I use this stuff from time to time. Cascade Platinum packets have worked well but now after being down to one job, TSP is back with cheaper detergents and works well. After losing one of my jobs, its back to TSP and a cheaper detergent. It's tempting to rationalize when we want to save some aggravation. I would be lying to say I haven't done the same at times. But the problem with phosphates is a serious one and really should have been addressed long ago.
If your water is that hard, try using a real rinse aid instead of vinegar. Laundry Too! The same story applies to your laundry as to your dishwasher. For front-loading washers, add one tablespoon TSP along with your normal laundry soap. TSP is perfectly safe for all colors and whites, and can be safely mixed with bleach if needed. Now your dishes and clothes will be clean again.
Gidget Fraser Gidget is a full-time wife and mommy, part-time blogger. Share on Facebook Share. Share on Twitter Tweet. Share on Pinterest Share. How much Veinte Caballo Boracho do you add to the washer? How much detergent? How much TSP? My laundry has been accumulating a dirty cast and I thought it was from a prior tenant using the machine leaving filthy water in the bottom! I knew there were food police but now we have dishwashing police also.
Until we get people in the government who is not in the pocket of environmentalists, so-called health experts and their ilk, you can count of there being more and more restrictions on what we are allowed to consume.
I read in the Wall Street Journal just yesterday that the food police are now targeting sugar. End of political rant. Regarding the dishes…. I use regular cascade gel with a rinse agent in my stainless steel tub GE dishwasher.
The dishes get clean so no problem there. I do have some scum around the edge of the door so I have to clean that.
And there is some calcium or lime residue that goes from just under the detergent cup down into the bottom of the tub. Jill, I read your previous notes a few months back regarding the challenges with dishwasher detergent. I noticed on the gel tabs there is a note on the box stating you must fold down the inside bag.
This is also on the box you have in your phosphate-free Finish photo above. Any idea why? At first, I thought one maybe busted in the box, but nope. When I use those krusty tabs, they clean the dishes even less than normal. Any thoughts on why that is? Started using two tabs in the dispenser and the dishes come out completely clean once again I only run the dishwasher every other day.
Since I never pay for this stuff in the first place, I have no problems with using twice as much! Now I know. Thanks, I thought it was our hard water since the city went to a different water source.
It has to be the powdered kind, and you do have to pay for it, but I like the company and I definitely like the results. We were given some free detergent by a friend whose dishwasher broke, and we used it for a long time, because it was such a big jug. Then one day I thought, wow, our dishes are really clean lately. I think not. My glasses glass cups are embarrassing. They are so foggy with residue. The vinegar takes the film off my glasses. Makes them look clear again. At the price I paid, it comes down to.
Been struggling with the dirty dishes knowing about the change that happened back in How much is the environment being hurt by people wasting two loads worth of water instead of one on getting their dishes clean.
All the extra scrubbing utensils going into landfills, two times the detergent used and what goes into manufacturing that, the water processing plants using more resources and electricity due to increased water usage which probably does more harm to the environment then the original concern.
These guys probably patted themselves on the back thinking they did something good for the environment. All they did was pass the buck. Jill, I appreciate all the time you took to test these different detergents and give us the results. You always give me food for thought. I also wonder if it has anything to do with having soft or hard water? There is another article in my local paper about TSP today! I went out this week and bought the 4. I tried my 1st load, but was unsure how much TSP to use.
I thought someone here said 1 tsp of TSP per load added to the crappy soap? Well I did that, and it was a bit better, but still not like old Cascade. My coffee carafe and clear glasses were still a bit streaky and the lipstick marks were not gone. I wipe each glass as I put it away I am getting tired of doing that! My ratio was 1 tsp TSP: 2 Tablespoons gel soap. Has anyone used equal parts? How does that come out? I will run my next load that way and see, but that seems like too much TSP?
Regarding dishwashers, my Mom found the bubblebandit soap and told me about it. She recently remodeled her kitchen and also has a Bosche; she contacted the warranty service and they told her to cut the amount of detergent she was using in half or use a liquid gel.
I am fairly new to couponing, thank you so much for making this site for the rest of us! Thank you Jill for including Bubble Bandit in your dishwasher detergent challenge. We spent over a year developing the Bubble Bandit formula prior to launching January 4th of this year. Your experimenting on just how much powder to use mirrors our own conclusions that no more than one tablespoon is needed for each wash cycle.
I wish we had discovered that prior to purchasing 50, printed bags.. We are introducing a gel with 8. We need your business and you need clean dishes.. Yeah, I ran out of my stockpile of the old stuff too. With the new phosphate-free detergent, it is horrible.
I am so glad there are still detergents available to me! Thank you so much for writing and researching this article! I have noticed with certain brands that it takes a few loads until you really notice the difference of the phosphate free detergents. For me, the Cascade gel pacs tend to leave residue on dishes which becomes more and more noticeable after several loads. Now, I am having it happen with the finish tabs too!
Easy pick up instead of ordering!! It looks like this is supplemental phosphates to assist the new dishwasher detergents. I read this review way back when, but it took me this long to finally do it :o. We have well hard water and ran into the problems described here — and ended up unnecessarily, most likely replacing our dishwasher. Well, the old one was having problems anyway. We tried it, it worked — but it was absurdly expensive.
Box with two little packets and tons of air cost several dollars. If you look around the internet, you can find sources of bulk food-grade citric acid. I toss about a eighth of a cup of the stuff into the bottom of the dishwasher with each load, and stuff actually comes out clean for the first time since the formulas changed.
Since much of the problem seems to be long-term buildup, a little in each wash, it would probably work as well if used every other time.
Citric acid is an excellent chelating agent, and is used in industry to clean metals. It leaves my dishes very clean! It works great, I would highly recommend it to anyone still unable to find a detergent that works for them.
Hello I stumbled upon your blog in the process of researching my grimy problem. I want to thank you for the informative article, but also for saving me a whole bunch of work! This is excellent research, very thorough and objective, and well documented to boot. I went through the same exercise as many; disassembling the machinery, looking for problems, changing the way I load the racks, pre-rinsing more, not pre-rinsing, descaling, hotter water, cooler water, etc.
It is shocking to me the amount of misinformation that is floating around out there about this obvious problem; and it is not without a price, as you constantly hear about people complaining about machine performance, only to end up paying for new pumps and other repairs, and even going so far as to replace the entire machine. It is surprising to me that the manufacturers would tolerate this.
I have been able to find many recipes for homemade dishwashing detergents, but I am still interested in developing my own so that I can tailor it to our specific conditions.
However, what I have noted is that even in powder form, combining the citric acid with the TSP powder produces a reaction, and gasses off something. As such, I am skeptical about the potency of anything that is made up ahead of time. My original plan was to simply add the powdered TSP and Citric Acid to a high quality brand-name powder. I am wondering if the reaction I observed is just the result of high humidity, or will it always occur? How do the detergent manufacturers make the liquids,then?
Is there a Chemist in the house???? Great article, thanks. Been using Bubble Bandit for about a month with fantastic results. I have had detergent caking in my dispenser for a couple of years and bubble bandit was doing the same. I immediately realized that putting a small hole in each end of this sprinkler arm would squirt water into the dispenser cup and rinse the detergent out.
Then I thought, I bet it has hole already, and I bet it is clogged. I inspected the rotary arm, and sure enough, in addition to the upward pointing holes in each half, there was another smaller hole in each end pointing outward that lined up perfectly with the dispenser cup.
It actually had a little plastic deflector that looked like it was made to deflect the stream directly into the dispenser. And I could see it was in fact clogged, and so was the outermost upward facing hole on each side, in fact. I was able to take the arm out of the dishwasher with a small wrench, and although I could not open it up to clean it out, by running water through it, and using a toothpick, I was able to clean all the debris out eventually.
I think the outer inches of this arm were completely full of debris! But by rinsing from one end to the other, and then tapping, and then rinsing the other direction, I was able to eventually get everything out.
I have run about 4 loads since then and the detergent dispenser is completely empty every time. Problem Solved! Good advice on the tip of the arm being clogged. All of the stubborn clogs I have encountered are near the end of the arm, and not easily noticed because they tend to fall back into the arm when the water stops flowing. There always seems to be some chewed-up plastic….
On a related note, I wanted to mention my findings on the caking issue. First, filling the dispenser way in advance of running the machine always seems to lead to this. I am guessing that any moisture that is lingering in the cup causes the formula to begin reacting, and it becomes a solid mass quickly. The other problem I have noted, which may be worse on models with adjustable height upper racks, is that if you get the upper rack set to just the right height, and you have some irregularly shaped objects positioned in the front corner, it is possible for the objects to protrude enough to actually block the door from flipping open all the way.
So again, just like the bottom rack, you need a consistent strategy on where to put what. I went to GFS a few weeks ago looking for the professional Cascade with phosphate.
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